what a fling fest

not really
if you keep up with this particular blog of mine, you may have noticed, not so much argument but discussion on the topic of calvinism/arminianism in my last post by people leaving comments, thats fine. i thought i'd make a post giving some points and generally moving that discussion here to where it should be. as per usual i'm crap at explantion so here are quotes.

now before i start, i want people to realise that calvinism is just as valid a doctrine as arminianism (that's what most pentecostal/modern christians are, they just don't realise there is a name for it) and for starters here are some quotes from the wikipedia

"Although much of Calvin's practice was in Geneva, his publications spread his ideas of a correctly reformed church to many parts of Europe. Calvinism became the theological system of the majority in Scotland, the Netherlands, and parts of Germany and was influential in France, Romania (especially in Transylvania and Poland. Most settlers in the American Mid-Atlantic and New England were Calvinists, including the Puritans and Dutch settlers of New Amsterdam (New York). Dutch Calvinist settlers were also the first successful European colonizers of South Africa, beginning in the 17th century, who became known as Boers or Afrikaners.Sierra Leone was largely colonised by Calvinist settlers from Nova Scotia, who were largely Black Loyalists, blacks who had fought for the British during the American War of Independence.

And some more quotes from the wikipedia

The five points of Calvinism

Main article: Five points of Calvinism

Calvinist theology is often identified in the popular mind as the so-called "five points of Calvinism," which are a summation of the judgments (or canons) rendered by the Synod of Dort and which were published as a point-by-point response to the five points of the Arminian Remonstrance (see History of Calvinist-Arminian debate). Calvin himself never used such a model, and never combated Arminianism directly. They therefore function as a summary of the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism but not as a complete summation of Calvin's writings or of the theology of the Reformed churches in general. The central assertion of these canons is that God is able to save every person upon whom he has mercy and that his efforts are not frustrated by the unrighteousness or the inability of men.

The five points of Calvinism, which can be remembered by the English acronym TULIP are:

* Total depravity (or total inability): As a consequence of the Fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. According to the view, people are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.
* Unconditional election: God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy.
* Limited atonement (or particular redemption or definite atonement): The death of Christ actually takes away the penalty of sins of those on whom God has chosen to have mercy. It is "limited" to taking away the sins of the elect, not of all humanity, and it is "definite" and "particular" because atonement is certain for those particular persons.
* Irresistible grace (or efficacious grace): The saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith in Christ.
* Perseverance of the saints (or preservation of the saints): Any person who has once been truly saved from damnation must necessarily persevere and cannot later be condemned. The word saints is used in the sense in which it is used in the Bible to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint).


And here is a link to a History of Calvinist and Arminian Debate

See Calvinism is not some new doctrine that I've just come up with, it's older than arminianism, the doctrine of most christians out there TODAY.

The beauty of christians is their ability to have crazy arguments based on emotion and an unwillingness to consider an opposite. I seriously challenge people to actually do some of their own research into this, don't just spout of what you think or have been taught by church leaders. If you research this and still find it lacking, then I'm happy, but if you just don't give it the time of day because you are too proud to consider that you may be incorrect, then I am unhappy.


Rayd, you say you believe in free-will but you cannot fall away from Salvation, as in, someone who falls away from God didn't really know him in the first place.

So what about people who don't go to Heaven? You're saying that when someone is born, God knows for certain if they will go to Heaven or not. So God willing makes people that he KNOWS will not choose him and go to Hell? How is that a loving God? Because you said unless someone truely knows God, they won't go to Heaven, but how can someone know God unless HE brings the person to him? A person cannot know God by his own accord or ability. What you're saying is he makes someone, gives them an option KNOWING they won't accept it, and then they go to Hell??

I don't actually disagree with that so much, only I don't think God actually offers something to people he knows won't take it. Well I don't even think God offers anything to us, he gives it to us, and if God gives us something how are we as humans to reject it? Is that even possible? I don't think so personally.

So people, go read about it. Here is another good link. And also read anti-calvinist writings too and see how for me they grasp onto weak concepts and out of context scripture. Remember the aim of the game isn't to be 'right' (even though I am :v) but is to have looked at all the paths and decided on your truth. I honestly believe what we call Calvinism to be the true gospel. No I don't think everything John Calvin said is 100% correct but I believe in the doctrine he outlined.

The theological/historical knowledge of christians about christianity is quite appaling really. I had to do a course to even learn that the original Hebrew people split into two distinct groups and formed the Jews and the Samaritans. Why wasn't I taught this in church, why was I only taught stuff like how to save my school (which is still not saved) and other stuff which is good at the time but based on emotion/being-cool and not really any depth.

Rayd and Sharyn said I should read my bible without the intention of study or trying to get anything out of it. Why should I read it like that? Where are the instructions in the bible for how to read it? Sure there is merit in reading it like that, but seeing as most churches don't study the bible during church and the 'bible studies' leave a hell of a lot to be desired, I need to study it at some stage..

/rant